it's not "over-lining" it's "proper-lining"

[merch]

Some of you may have figured out by now I like to ramble a bit. Hopefully someone finds this info useful.

I started fly fishing two years ago. I use it primarily in smaller estuaries in slow to moderate current and sometimes in the surf. I use floating line techniques only. This was a choice I made because I selected the fly rod to catch fish in situations that were better suited for a flyrod than conventional (or spinning) gear. This approach led me to the floater. I didn't choose to flyfish for the sake of catching fish on a flyrod. Truth be told, reeling in a fish on spinning gear may be less intimate, but it's a hell of a lot more comfortable. From my experience, the flyrod itself stinks as a fish fighting tool no matter how heavy the gear is. I chose the flyrod only because it was a better tool for specific tasks.

There are many purists out there that only choose to flyfish and will make a flyrod work in situations it really was not intended for and that’s OK, it's innovative. There are also traditional surf anglers out there that believe that flyfishing is a sport only for "sensitive" or "light on their feet" guys. The truth is, both could benefit greatly from the other. The flyrod is simply a tool that was developed for a specific set tasks ( it was not developed for saltwater game either, but it happens to excel in many situations). One of those tasks is to deliver very small offerings that would be difficult by other means. But perhaps, most importantly, the flyrod and its various techniques were developed with the challenges of proper presentation in mind. This is why a flyrod excels in areas with current. It is sometimes very difficult with traditional gear to properly present your offering from a specific location to fish feeding in a specific manner at a certain position. With traditional gear (swimming plugs, jigs, etc.) this problem is typically approached by shifting your position on the shore to present your offering at different angles, perspectives and depths to the fish. With the flyrod and a floating line, the angler is given a variety of options just by modifying his presentation without the need to move his position. Different types of drifts, swings, etc. It gives you the ability to cover a much wider range of water, angles and depth with a single tool, from just one position. Of course, in order to take advantage of these benefits, the angler must take the time to practice and perfect these techniques. This is part of the reason so many drop the sport before really giving it a chance, simply because it's too hard. I'm not very consistent yet myself, but these techniques has proven far too useful for me to ever drop it. I'll be flyfishing for a while.

This brings me to the next part. Lines. Lines drove me crazy for a while. I originally got a 9wt Loomis rod and a 10wt line because that was what was recommended by the guy at the shop. I practiced and practiced but never seemed to feel the rod "load" properly. Someone finally suggested that I should try going up a few line weights. I was skeptical at first and people said I was using it as a crutch because of my poor casting technique. I tried it anyway and was amazed with the results. The rod felt like it was finally doing something. I could move a lot of line with very little effort. It made flyfishing enjoyable and allowed me to work on more important things like presentation. Why is "overlining" frowned upon and considered a crutch? You don't need a crutch if everything is working properly. You only need a crutch if something is broken. In this case it wasn't my casting technique that was broken, it was the rod labeling. It worked so well I don't see how it could be considered wrong. If it makes casting easier it must be right. Why try to make it harder? Why bother judging this approach as novice? It works. Period.

Now, I typically only work a line at relatively short ranges, say... 15-60 ft. Not too many situations locally ask for more than that and if they did, I'd probably go to spinning gear (again, selecting the right too for the job). This in part, affected my choice to use a line heavier than the rating on the rod. This led me to some questions though: How do manufacturers rate their rods? I know all of the line weight and grain weight stuff, but it seems that all that just tries to oversimplify a fairly complicated problem. Are saltwater rods designed for sinking lines which tend to have heavier grain weights and in some cases longer heads than floaters? And if a 9wt sinker has a higher grain weight than another floating 9wt isn't that a case of the manufacturer mislabeling the product. And if that's the case aren't you already "overlining" your rod even though the box says something different? Who is right? There is an answer. Everyone's right and everyone's wrong. If you think I'm wrong, try weighing the head of your fast sink line and you may find the actual grain weight is 2 or 3 times heavier than the line weight rating on the box. Might be worth checking out. Do some of you find your 9wt sinker is easier to cast than your 9wt floater? This might be the reason.

There is only one way to properly line a rod for yourself and that is by trying a variety of lines and paying attention to the "actual" weights of the ones you find are appropriate for your style of fishing. Everyone has a different casting style. Some fast, some slow, some with big loops, some with tight loops... I've adopted a slower style of casting. This being said, I haven't found a rod with a label I could trust yet and I don't think I will. Don't get me wrong there's a lot of good gear out there. It just seems that all companies and "professional fisherman" designing their own series of rods have their own ways of rating and labeling and there is definitely a lack of consistency between them. This just makes it more confusing for all of us.

I've definitely been influenced by a certain school of thought which has led me away from sinking lines and weighted flies. I'm not trying to say that those methods are wrong though. I've tried them too. They just seem like a spinning gear adaptation of the flyrod and their range of uses, although effective at times, seem very limited for the shore bound striper fisherman. There are lots of ways to skin a cat. I just found the way I like best.

[pec54]

Excellant; JKA has taught you well!

[Tillerjock]

The line between spinning tackle and fly fishing continues to blur... once the weight of the lure/fly gives you the "double bump" on the fly rod it's time to switch to spin tackle. Nothing like a popper or lightweight fly just below the surface, but when the fish are deep it's time to put away the fly rod and go to spin.

[E-Z MURF]

I say, find a brand of lines and rods that you like and stick with them. Once you get in tune with your gear there isn't much need too change things on a regular basis.

I've been fishing with 400-600 grain lines for almost 15 years now and I know exactly which one of my rods to use for each situation. I do agree however that companies have yet to nail down a perfect rating system but I'm not holding my breath waiting for them.

It does take time, patiance and experimentation but once you find what works for you, don't deviate unless neccessary.

The majority of your fishing is below the surface, so why would you want to give up a major portion of the water column? I've always said "if your not catching Mussels, your not catching fish".

And as for the spinning rod referance, to some degree it is true that at some point you are approacing trying to replicate spinning tackle. As far as I'm concerned there is nothing like having success with fly gear no matter what the fishing situation calls for in terms of tackle. I also feel that fighting fish on fly tackle gives you a bit more control and leverage expecially when fighting bigger critters.

With that said, I will also pick up the spinning gear when it's called for. For some of us it's a fine line between making the correct choice to change gear and tactics when neccessary. The smart angler should utilize all methods and techniques to be successful on the water.

That's all,
Out,
E-Z MURF

[merch]

I agree with most of what you said, especially about the lines but, it is possible to fish deep without full sink lines and jig flies. It's just rather difficult at first and requires someone to pay a lot of attention to what's going on. The tricks I have been shown involve occationaly using a sink tip made from various lengths of lead core (or I suppose short lengths of sinking line would do also) but the majority of tricks involve a systematic approach of sequentially varying tactics.

Let's assume I'm using a simple unweighted streamer like a ray's fly. The process starts with varying the angle at which you cast the line upcurrent. If you mend the line so the current is never allowed to pull the floating line down stream with the current faster than the fly (minimize the drag on the line) and you do this through the entire swing, the fly will sink at whatever rate is natural for it and the leader. As you fish the entire swing it will sink and hover undisturbed until the swing is complete. The further upcurrent you cast and the more you mend, the deeper it will go. Varying the length of the leader will allow you to go deeper or shallower in the area you are fishing.

Next step is to add split shot to the leader. It brings the leader down more effectively than the fly weight alone (in some situations) and will still allow the fly to hover and move naturally in the flow as it sinks. Add more shot and change leader lengths for different sinking characteristics. Use this along with different swings and you'll cover more, deeper water. I like this approach better than weighted flies because you don't add any jigging action to the fly (that is if you don't want to). It gives you more options. The fly is free to move and flow in any direction and you are not limited to the up-down action of a jig fly.

I'm no trout fisherman but from my recent reading and conversations with other fisherman it looks like most of these tricks came out of that world. They've been doing this stuff for a long time and I think it's a good idea to take advantage of the wide array of techniques developed over the years. Also, I think deviating from things you have found that work in the past is the only way to get better and learn more. If you get stuck in a routine (and I'm guilty of this most of the time too) then you really limit yourself as to how much you can learn. I like starting with an idea, trying it and seeing where it takes me. Sometimes I completely abandon the original idea I started with because it takes me somewhere else more interesting.

I agree most fishing occurs below the surface too, but this is where we should begin to differentialte between night and day. We are all taught to scrape the bottom during the day and sometimes this is what is required. It also depends on the mood of the fish and what they are after. If they are bottom feeding then yes, scrape the bottom, but if they are hanging low and feeding on something above them as it comes to them, I've rarely found a fish that won't "rise to the occation". I've found that fish are more likely to rise greater distances to intercept forage in feeding lanes than they are to move left or right. During the night, they are typicaly feeding just below the surface anyway. This is just my observation though. Finding those boundaries of there strike zones on a particular day in a particular place is what keeps me coming back for more. It's always different but somewhat the same everytime. This why avoiding getting stuck in routines can make you more well rounded as a fisherman.

I'm not trying to knock anyone's methods here I'm just trying to open up some dialoge. Thanks for sharing your views on the subject.

[Hookemdude]

I am no purist, but do prefer catching fish on a fly, surface or not. Sometimes when the schoolies are around it seems to be the method of choice. Of course if other guys are around catching 20lbers on plugs I switch.

I have fly fished for trout since I was 6, and many of my catches are smaller than the plugs I have now. In the last few years I have mastered nymph fishing and my catches (size and numbers) have improved. A guide I hired a few years back commented that the better fisherman can get a nymph deeper and faster with less weight than others. (Does that make sense?) Then, the better fisherman have less weight to cast, and can reach more water too.

Anyway, as you guys have noted, it's line management and mending that really do the trick. That gets the fly in the right part of the water column. For a dead drift streamer (or nymph) that is all you need. But, as soon as I move the offering with floating line, the fly moves up in the column. Thats still probably great for most situations. However, if I want to keep it down the sink tip or intermediates (with a short leader) work better for me. The short leader keeps the streamer more "true" to the line. With longer ones my line may be deep as the fly heads to the surface.

My rod set up was a relatively cheap package, but it feels good in my hand ( a 9-10 rod with 10 weight lines). The cost allowed me to buy 2 extra spools...I usually go out with floating, clear intermediate, and 300 grain sink tip. That intermediate was supposed to be the cat's meow but I use it the least. The floater with a half and half is my favorite set up-probably works like jigging.

Sorry to be so long winded, but I am already excited to get out. If any of you want to shake off the cobwebs, I know some nice C and R spots on the Housatonic that start working in Feb. and March.

Hookem

[C. Regalis]

Howdy, guys-

Ya can't post everywhere, and I read a lot more than I post here on SWE (Howdy, PEC) but 'new guy' or not allow me to play devil's advocate.


With all due respect to the author ("a flyrod stinks as a fish fighting tool") when applied properly you can put an awful lot of pressure on a fish with a flyrod- keeping the tip low and allowing the rod to flex as far as possible into the first third of the blank is the key. Raise the rod tip to a place where you'd hold your spinning rod and you put next to nothing on the fish. Fight with the butt 1/3 of the blank, and low/to the side when appropriate, and I'll bet you could not hold the fly in your hand aginst that pressure.

"I've adopted a slower casting style"... Great- me too. I prefer a rod with a moderate flex. Now I have a Loomis 8 weight that's a moderately priced GL3 and it fits my style. Don't know what the rod in question is, but if its a Cross Current, for example, no wonder you can't load it. It doesn't fit your style. The thing is a cannon- and its so fast that unless your casting stroke is suited to it and well developed, its no surprise that you're not feeling it load even uplined by one. By using an 11 or even a 12 weight line you're taking a very fast rod and slowing it down to where you like the feel.

Which does make uplining it 3 weights a crutch. If the rod (assuming its very fast) is not suited to your preferred casting style, it's the rod selection that's "broken". The crutch helps you limp it along and force it to be what you wish it was to start with.

"Right tool for the right job..."

Choose the right rod for your style to begin with, and you're good-to-go.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

[merch]

And I thought this thread had gasped for it's last breath months ago...


Devil’s advocate… always welcome. These forums would be boring without it. You raise some interesting points.

The rod is a crosscurrent. I admit, I had no idea what I wanted when I started. My newly formed opinion of what type of gear was best, was molded by the salesman to conform with what he considered was right. No blame on him, he was just doing his job. But, there weren’t many resources available to the guy starting out that might indicate their may be another way to cast other than high line speed, fast rods and light reels.

I did push the line weights up quite a few to get it where I wanted it. And I can also cast the line it’s rated for now, although I would never go back to fish with it. Not a crutch, but you are partially right, it is a preference. Besides, there’s no way to choose a right rod for your style if you haven’t had the chance to develop a style yet.

I like the way the rod feels with the higher line. It softens right up and even fishes the line in the water better.

You may have more experience with fighting fish on the flyrod than me. My basis for the opinion you referenced, "a flyrod stinks as a fish fighting tool" are based on my comparison between the flyrod and other rods used to fight fish (spinning, etc.). The mechanics of fighting fish on either type of gear are similar in theory. I like the tip down, flexed out to one side or the other. Use the rod as a cushion for the line rather than a stick to yank the fish in on. This cushioning effect makes it easier than pulling a line in with your hand, and the rod pointed toward the fish gives the animal less mechanical advantage over you during the fight.

Even with spinning gear, when possible I like the tip low and only use short pulls on the rod to beat the fish. Much more efficient that way. Big long strokes and a high tip can only cause trouble and ultimately kick your ass in the end. A high tip is just creating a larger lever arm for the fish to pull against. You can fight a fish well on a flyrod if you adopt this philosophy, but it’s less comfortable and more work than the same fight on equivalent sized spinning gear. Just take 1:1 line ratios compared to the 4:1 and 5:1 of other types of gear. Never mind not having a drag that’s independent of the spool. But it is a skill that needs to be developed and I’m sure after a while the quirks of fighting fish on a flyrod become second nature to an experienced angler. But it will never be more effective than other gear.

I talk about this stuff because very few others seem to, outside of some very limited resources. I want other people starting out to know that flyfishing didn’t start with high line speed techniques, casting lessons and fast rods. They should know that this “new” stuff is just that… New. It’s not necessarily the best way for everyone and certainly not the only way.

Fish are fish. Many people long ago, much smarter than myself, figured out what needs to be done to catch them. We should take advantage of the lessons they learned and shared over the years. Take the time to understand them and then work to develop our own skills from them.



To quote a friend… “It’s a stick and a string”… nothing more.


Thanks for the feedback CR!

[patfly]

Hey guys,

I don't know if I'm a purist but I'm very stubborn when it comes to fishing technique: I flyfish. I use it in the surf, breechway, wall, estuaries...day and night...wind or not...

OK...I do use the spin-rod every once in a while but god is it boring...to me!!
And if I don't catch a very big fish I can't feel a thing on the rod...not very pleasurable. I have more fun in an evening catching smaller fish but having a ton of fun with every single one and having fun casting than fishing for bigger fish and only 'feel' something every once on a while...

My favorite fishing is in the surf or in the breechway...mostly at dawn or early night...And my favorite line is a floating line...even in the surf I used it a lot last year and caught a bunch of fish...!!! I just love to cast these lines and profoundly hate sinking lines....I'm from the trout fly fishing world so I like to have the fish come to the surface...or close. I'm also getting very used with a intermediate...all those hours/days/weeks on the West Wall fishing for these tuna got me onto them...

Speaking of them...I caught a few albies from the WW with a 9wt GL3...not a bad fighting tool...even wanted to downgrade to an 8wt rod....next season...

Maybe I should point out that I also like to try at some point in the evening, upon using the floating line, a sinking tip...5-7 feet...on the beach of when I drift when water is more deep.

The great thing about the sinking line is that they are so heavy they're good in windy situation...I have to admit that.

I also use a 10 wt floating line on my 9 wt but a 9 weight intermediate...I guess you have to go with whats feels good in your arm in terms of tool and fish sensation.

Just my 2 cents...

have a great season everyone

Pat

[merch]

There are ways to make plugging interesting. Trust me. Play around with it and don't just cast and reel. There are places where it's more of a challenge to catch fish on a plug than it is the fly. But the reeling in will always be easier.

Ligten up the gear if your looking for more of a challenge beating them.